Let's talk machines

[imported_NeedleJack]

Hi Everyone,

Well I am getting the feeling unless I start a thread it will never start. By no means am I the machine master, as I'm sure we have all met someone in our trials that have amazed us with their ability to create works of art with junk machines. But what is the best setup?

Really I think this is personal preference. But, if you're new, you definetely should have a starting base before you go chewing up everyones skin with a machine used to break concrete.

With that note, I will leave it at that and get back to this later as I'm actually in the middle of doing something else. I just felt compelled to write something in here seeing that we just installed the bulletin board and got tired of looking at nothing in here.

[vernon]

I just want to say that I absolutely can not wait to get my machine so that I can go ahead and start to get the feel of it. Also I hear that 11-12 volts is good for doing lining, and some where below that is good for shading.

peace 8)

[imported_NeedleJack]

As far as volts go, never go lower than 10. Honestly, an 8 volt is just the manufacturer trying to save a buck on wrapping coils. But any volt that low you would use for lining NOT SHADING. The higher the volt you would use for shading. A 10 Wrap is your all around - all purpose coils used by most in the industry. Trust me on this 10 is fine.

[Anonymous]

I have a few questions about my power source verses new power sources.I have a old spalding and rogers speed adjuster with foot peddal hook up and clip cord hook up. but i am useing a 12v power supply.How much better are the new power supplies and do you have any sugestions on what type is best or what i could do to make mine better thank you wolfey

[imported_NeedleJack]

Spaulding and Rogers - ahh yes the pioneers. Is there a difference between the old ps and the new? Honestly, if your ps is working fine for you, I wouldn't change. Yeh, you could get a Instek that is pure clean power, but really, I have seen masterpieces accomplished with a plug in power supply with an on/off switch on the cord. What that tells you is - if you wanna ferrari of ps's and you got the change to drop on one, sure, go ahead. Do you need it? No. Very seldom will you ever need above the 12V that we are talking. Even when using more rubberbands and increasing the power for mag/round shade work. Unless your ps is sputtering and is giving you signs that it's on it's last leg I would stay where I am. And if you run much higher than 12v your coils will start getting hot, no matter what type of coils you got.

[Anonymous]

i dont get it. i drop my voltage for lining and shading so i can go over the areas without chewing things up-we do a lot tribals-(polynesian style) and at the moment i keep things at about 7 volts dropping down or going up depending on the skin type -etc.tattooing feet or realy tight skin gets in around 5 or 6 voltz so the lines dont bleed out.

[txtatz]

Volts are not the real issue here, all my machines, even liner run at under 10 volts, most around 5 to 7 volts. The machine, set up, coils, tpye of capacitor, spring tension, air gap, point gap, stroke are what should be taken into consideration. The biggest thing is going to be coils and the gaps of the front and back coil to the ameture bar. If you have cheap poorly wound coils and the proper gap is not on the front and back coil you will have to crank up the voltage to get the machine to run.
when the amature bar goes down it should not hit the back coil, but it should be very close, less than 1/16 of an inch. And also when the amature bar goes down and makes contact with the front coil the amaeture bar should be even and flush with the back sbring mount.
The speed of the machine is whats important, lower voltages can still acheive proper speed. Speed is measured in Hertz (Hz) and can be checked with a voltmeter.

[Jillsta]

First of all...this is my first post ever. I can't believe this place exsists and I am so grateful it does. I've done about 15 tattoos now and am starting to hunger for the knowledge on how my tattoo machine really works. I'm no electrician nor mechanic, but want to understand the basics. Can you explain to me how it works in really simple terms?

I am currently using a machine I bought from Superior... the Road Runner... cast iron, 10 wrap coils. I use a 10 turn power supply with no digital read out, so I've been going by feel and sound. I use the dime width with higher power for lining, and nickle width and lower speed for shading. I've learned a lot so far, but most of it has been on my own, since I am in a rural area with no one to help me.

I have lots of questions, so I hope you all have lots of patience!! Here's some of them:

What effect does a longer or shorter armature bar have on the machine? Is a longer one better for shading?

How does a longer or shorter spring effect it? What about the gauge of the spring?

Coils: the higher the wrap, the more the power? How would a 12 wrap coil machine run differently than a 10 wrap?

I'm looking to buy a 2nd machine, so when it talks about being a lining machine.... what makes it a lining machine? What makes it shading machine? What makes it able to set up as both?!

There.... that should keep you busy for a bit. Thanks for the help!

[Anonymous]

welcome Jilsta , I think you have a good set up from the sounds of it , I too bought my kit from superior , and I dont believe they have a difference in thier liner and shader , I think they only use one set of coils . But its been a while since I have bought from them . If u have the money to buy that second machine , then u might think about purchasing some instructional videos , What state do u live in ? if u dont have a autoclave , then be sure to use only pre made pre sterlized needles and disposable tubes . they are VERY inexpensive . Infact thats all I use at my shop . I can post a link to the suppliers (if the admin here dosnt mind since he dosnt sell them) but I wont if Im told not to . And dont forget to use a high level dissenfectant too for cleaning ur work area .

[Jillsta]

Hey Runic! Thanks for the welcome. At first, I bought Superior's V-TEC machine, and I had a tattoo artist look at it and he hated it... he said he wanted to throw it against the wall! So, I told Superior that, and they replaced it with what I have now... no questions asked. I liked that about their company, but I think they are pretty expensive, since I've been shopping around lately.

The same tattoo artist gave me some quick tips and pointed me in the right direction, so I think I'm doing pretty well with my tattoos so far. I can see where I've made a lot of progress already. I'll post some pics when that section gets up and running here.

I use new needles every time and disposable tubes. (I buy them here at Needle Jack... that's how I found this forum) I'm really careful about cleaning everything too. I use tube sleeves and cover my machine with a sandwich baggy and change gloves frequently during the process.

Thanks for the advice... it's very appreciated! OH, I live in Nevada.

[Anonymous]

oh I guess he does ........well then nevermind about that ,sorry chris...
I didnt really like my machine from superior (the viper) it just didnt feel right . now I mainly use another machine that has been given to me . And HELL YES they are expensive I dont buy anything from them anymore.

As far as the length of the armature bar goes I think they are all about the same length , any shorter or longer and the needle bar wouldnt sit right .

the length of the springs are sometimes adjustable depending on your machine , but so is your contact post , but im not sure what effect it might have on the performance , maybe one of these more experienced people here can answer that better .

Dont think I have ever seen a 12 wrap coil , just 8 and 10 . I only use one machine , with a 10 works fine for liner and shader .

hope that helps a little , good luck !!!

[txtatz]

OK, Armature bare are pretty much all the same lenght. The onlt thing that will vary with an amature bare is the thickness to change the weight of it. Spings can be shorter. In a cutback liner the spings are usually cut shorter.

Springs determine the speed of the machine and how much voltage is required to achieve the desired speed. The thicker the forward spring the faster the machine will run, thinner forward spring the slower the machine will run. The back spring determines the pressure of how the front spring will press againts the contact screw, it will also deterime the speed of the machine.

Now with that said, again speed of the machine is measured in Hertz (Hz), not volts.
I have to disagree with needlejack on using a faster running machine for shading or coloring. This is the quickest way to overwork the skin and cause scaring. And once again the speed of a machine can be achieved at lower voltages if it is set up properly.

A liner machine should usually run from 120Hz to 140Hz depending on how quickly you move your hand. A shader should run around 110Hz to 115Hz and a solid color machine runs the slowest at around 100Hz.

To check the speed of your machine hook a volt meter that can read Hertz to it to check it while its running, with it set up with a needle and tube.

[vernon]

stroke of the machine or the hand?

[olboys]

how would you check a machine with a multimeter and what setting does it need to be on.

[framey]

:evil:

[framey]

:evil:

[olboys]

my meter dont have any hertz scale on it .im looking too buy one with one.thanks

[framey]

:evil:

[framey]

:evil:

[tat2er1]

one other thing that will change the speed, and hit of a machine is the distance between the rear shelf and the back of the a-bar. the longer the distance , the more"whip" that is created, the slower the machine. once again, the geometry of the machine has a great deal to do with this. you MUST work with the parameters of what you have. i have found that setting up liners , the shorter the distance , the faster and harder the machine will hit, depending on the gauge spring you use and some other factors. adjustable rear shelves like on the time machines allows for this adjustment. one other"MAJOR" factor is the capacitor. of course the larger the rating slower the machine. also for the record, 8 wrap coils are more efficient and stronger than 10 wrap coils . bigger is not better in this case.
all my machines run between 4-6 volts and hit like a jack hammer if i set them up to do so. the rule of thumb is the lower the volts , the more efficient the machine. turning it up that high to put in in , tells me that your duty is way to low.

[tattooist]

this is in response to needlejack...

don't go lower than ten volts you say? and where did you ever learn this? the more voltage (as has already been stated) the less efficiently the machine will operate. this excessive voltage creates heat among numerous other problems. what you really want to do is tattoo with the lowest voltage posible to get th job done. that should always be your objective.

and i must disagree on the comment about power supplies. power supplies are NOT created equal by any means. you always get what you pay for...period.

[DamienWolfe]

All I can say is that I wish I had found this forum sooner...
Okay, I bought a Kaplan machine (I know I know). I have to make the best of it as I don't have the funds at the moment to purchase something else.
The question I have is
A) is anyone familiar with these machines? and
B) would they be willing to provide me with some advice, help, to get the thing set up properly.

The machine was supposed to be "pre-calibrated" when I got it, but since reading through here, it is very apparent that it wasn't.

I am very new to this and where I live the local pro's are less than receptive to questions...

[krow]

i just wanna touch base again on the v-tek machine.I recently bought one for the reasons that it dont heat up,theres no arcing,no capicitor,and the power supply will let me contol the intesity at which the needle is hitting the skin,as well as dail it down to as low as 10 cycles per sec and all the way up to 99 per sec.now with that being said, this is the first machine ive used and i bought it because i was under the impression i would have more control over my machine as well as power supply features.

i was just wondering why people dont like this machine and power supply. It works very consistanly and does everything they said it would. Now i personally want to buy the best equipment i can get my hands on so if there is some reason im unaware of that this is a bad setup, please by all means inform me and ill return it.

p.s. as far as the gun goes itself it feels a little ocward to me but you can have any maching converted to work with the power supply.so should i keep it and just get a new gun to run with it or scrap the whole idea.someone let me know :!: thanx

[WORKINGMANS]

kROW,
I havent been posting on this board ans saw your post and thought i could gain you some insight. I read recently a short story about a pretty famous tattoo builder and how he met lyle tuttle many years ago, he pulled out one of his new rookie machines and approached lyle and said mr. tuttle; i was wondering if you could take a look at the machine i bought , and lyle placed it in his hand coil side facing him and said " i don't know anything about this machine" this statement was made without pulling the armature bar down studying hardware or plugging it in, you see lyle tuttle made an assesment of this machine by just putting it in the palm of his hand, he did not have to clamp on the jacks an listen to it buzz to rate this machine, just by the feel of that machine in you hand you can answer several questions, what is the weight, how is it going to do in an environment with latex gloves grasping it day in/ day out? does it have sharp edges which could pierce gloves?, is the chuck an easy device which will not cause you to break down the machine like you are field stripping a m16?. I guess what i am trying to hit home to you is that if you are comfortable sitting in your studio and you can put that v-tech machine in your hand without a tube/needle setup in it and you can say " man this is my workhorse, it packs the sweetest of lines or the smoothest of gradients or the solidest color then you have your machine,
I personally use a ms microdial to line, a ms t dial for wash and a paco rollins brass shader to color, these machines to me run the way i want, i pick all 3 of them up when i get into the shop, plug them each in listen to them buzz, who knows maybey even a smidge of a turn on my contact to satisfy my eardrums, then i put them down only to pick them up to tattoo with... although others may say... "oh micky sharpz micro,,, agghhhh thats garbage.. you have to use more of a cut back liner for solid lines." you know what.. i disagree and as i hold my machines in my hand one last time after wipeing them at the end of a session, i know they are the right ones... then you have the right machines, no one here can tell you what you are comfortable with
Sincerely
WM

[imported_NeedleJack]

I got a good story. Lyle, Walt (who owns Superior Tattoo and the inventor of the V-Tek) and myself all sat down in Idaho last September to talk machines. Interestingly enough, Lyle and I talked machines for 5 minutes and drank Grapefruit and Tequilla for the next 3 hours. Lyle is a great guy and knows machines obviously. But in all honesty - the machine he held in his hand must of been a real piece of shit to make that assessment. Lyle is human like the rest of us. That means, Lyle uses a clipcord and footswitch also. Incidently, Lyle quit slinging quite a few years back. Some of you may or may not know this - but if Aaron Cain was to build a machine, he could realistically sell that for $900 easy. Why? Because he is AC. Same for Lyle. If you or I built one we could get - uh, I don't know $65 :D

Bottom line, if you wanna really learn how to cast and tweak machines. I'll call Lyle and tell him you wanna pay his $2500 to spend a week at his house in the Bay Area and he'll teach you everything you wanna know. Sometimes craftmanship is sold - not passed down.

[krow]

so pretty much quit worring about what everyone else thinks and find what im comfortable with....right.sounds good to me i just want to narrow it down to machines that are known to be awsome and try to strear clear of something that going to fall apart and be a pain in the ass.i dont have the money for hit or miss.thanx for the info though i appreicate it.

[imported_NeedleJack]

I'm not at liberty to tell you what is Junk etc - please ask Runic or Choppers4life. I'm sure they will be more than happy to tell you what is shit. My opionion - buy one of my machines. Price is right, iron or brass and I guarantee my machines work.

[voodoo]

who sig. is on the new machines?(brass models)

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

anybody use true springs?what the high com and low comp? :oops:

[olboys]

what from eikon? i do.you can read up on them there they have an info section there if your interested

[gremlin]

Hi all, I am a newbie here and sort of a newbie to tattooing. I have been tattooing for a little over a year now. I probably have tattooed over 500 pig ears and have done about 100 tattoos on humans. I currently am using a Hodge podge of machines and power supplies. At the moment I have 2 Kaplan machines(really bad, but useable), 2 superior swingate( my work horses), and an odball "Snake Yates" (that doesnt work half the time.) as for power supplies I have a Kaplan, a National, a TTS dual supply and an Instek copy. I am considering trying some machines from here. I would like to know of the unimax models here which one(s) are the best suited for liners and which are best suited for shaders. Im not real familiar with the unimax machines but I have heard the name around a few shops. And at the 65 to 70 dollar range for cast iron it looks like I could afford to buy a liner and shader for both myself and my wife.

[Bigfish]

I've got a simular question to Gremlins. I too have been tattooing with two Kaplan machines for over a year now and want to buy a couple of the brass machines from needlejack. Is the freedom machine suitable for both lining and shading with just adjustments? How about the Big jack? I'd like to have one of each. One setup for a liner and the other as a shader. I,ve still got tons to learn and really want to learn more about machine setup. Thanks to all for the info shared on this site. Later...Fish

[imported_NeedleJack]

fsdfsd

[Essex Boy]

???

[Capt. Calzone]

CC Irons have got some great coils. Machines aren't all that pretty but they certainly run well and get the job done. I actually preffer them over my Waters and Paolini machines.