Serious question for the suppliers

[Anonymous]

I notice almost every mass supplier sells kits in different forms. Needlejack, for example sells 6 different ones...and only two include a sterilizer of any sort. Yes, the others have a bottle of cold sterilant, which we all know is unacceptable, as there is no way to validate sterilization...or at least we all SHOULD know that. So, you KNOW the people buying these kits will be tattooing other people with them, and you KNOW (or SHOULD KNOW) they will need an autoclave. So my question is, why (besides the ca$h) do you sell those things to people? Isn't it promoting irresponsibility to a great extent?
Many suppliers only sell to professionals working in a studio. It assumes they have an autoclave if they made it that far. If the person has to cut corners when buying a setup, do you actually feel that person should be doing tattoos? Every local law I have ever read requires that a tattooist have an autoclave. So, why sell equipment to those who don't, or don't want to have one?
I recently had a chat with a girl who set up a studio, and was showing off her $2000 reclining chair, and her $1000 worth of crapola machines she didn't know how to use yet, and her amazing assortment of flash that must have cost a fortune...and she didn't have a sterilizer....the ONE THING that she should have had before she was allowed to have another single piece of equipment.
So when her customers end up with Hep C because she didn't want to invest $1000 in a RELIABLE autoclave, they can at least say they caught the deadly virus in a nice chair, eh?
I hope this is addressed and not deleted, as it is an important issue, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.

[Anonymous]

I have been licensed for a little over a year now and working in a shop for the last 8 months . IN the state of Oregon I had to go through an appreticship . That cost me 6,500 $ Until then , I was working on the side for about 7 years . I never know anything about how to be clean with my work or equiptment . Also I had NEVER been asked to prove I worked in a shop , hell I had my mom order everything I needed , she never had to give proof of anything . Even the companys I buy from now have never asked for a shop name or anything . The ONLY one that has ever asked was Mickey Sharpz ...

I think with alot of states not having licensing and some haveing only you go buy the license and not taking any sort of exam about the cross contamination , or blood bourne pathogens , is wrong ...

At least here , those of us "profesionals" and yes there are some ...can give advise to those who will continure to practise tattooing with or without a license ...I did so myself for YEARS , luckily I never contracted any kind of disease . Now those "scratchers" or Ill calll em enthusiests , have access to disposable equiptment , which if u read around the forum will see that is the exact advice I give to the ones who ask for advice on starting out in the industry .

I dont know if your the same person who was here earlier , but this is an open forum , everyone is entitled to thier opinion , but spouting off garbage and insults to those of us who are "Trying to help others " will not be tolerated ...fact of the matter is , people will be tattooing weather they know how to be clean or not . I see it in my own customers , and I see it in who I was years ago . People will do it regardless of the reprocusions ...I feel helping to be more educated about what they are doing is a good thing to do ...tis forum is not intended to promote sales to anyone , it is just what it is , an open tattoo forum . Products are not pushed onto anyone , once there was mention of a machine ...only cause I asked ...this forum will remain , and Im proud to be a part of it .

[Anonymous]

This was my first post, so no...I haven't been here before. What you said didn't really address my questions.
I'll rephrase... If a supplier knows an autoclave is mandated nearly everywhere, (for obvious reasons) and they know there are deadly viruses around, and they know people are going to be using their equipment on other people WHY DON'T THEY make sure the person is licensed, and in a studio? Do they feel they are contributing to the industry by supplying people with what they will need to infect someone, without making certain they have the proper safety equipment? Is it just about the money? I mean, selling a machine to some idiot is one thing...but when you sell a KIT, and you don't include a sterilizer with it, what message do you feel that is sending?
I realize people do it...what I want to know is WHY they insist on doing it, then claiming to love and respect the industry they are helping to oversaturate and destroy.

[Anonymous]

And another thought...
If them being clean is truely your main objective for helping them along...and it should be...why not require that they take a course in cross contamination control BEFORE you hand out information on "how to shade" or "How to do blackwork" on an open forum?
I am not attempting to start trouble. I just want to find answers to questions I haven't been able to find from anyone yet.
I've heard a zillion people tell me they think it's good to help these people...but I have yet to see a single one ask that the person get certified (and prove it) in exchange for that info. Don't you feel that would be FAR more responsible?

[Anonymous]

I mean, C'mon! The list of forums here is:

Tricks & How To's
Machine Tweaks
Lining Technique
Black n Grey
Color Thoughts
Pigments / Inks
Second Medium
FAQ's
Site Suggestions

Where is the forum for cross contamination? Where is the forum for aseptic procedure? Where are you training these people to not kill or infect someone? Seriously.
If you truely love something, and want to help, don't you first conider these obvious things?

[tat2er1]

great point. here in nj they just passed some of the strictest laws in the country. we have to pass the p.d.t.t test, advanced first aid, osha bullshit, hazard waste contracts,strict structural guidlines, have liablility insurance , and the list goes on and on. now dont get me wrong, i have been a member of the APT for some years now and the laws that nj set in place only ligitamize my proffesion. if you can afford it. i have been following pretty much the same guidelines they put in place since i opened so it wasnt a real shock to me, but the amount of shops that were put out of business is alot. so perhaps setting up a topic like sterilization technics and what the board of health likes to see, we all can learn a lot.

[Anonymous]

yes that would be a good idea , a thread on sterilization and one on after care , maybe one on Blood bourne pathogens where we can post info on statistics and such . There was a picture section here too , dont know what happened .
This forum was set up by "needle Jack" who is too busy to keep up with it , so he asked me to watch over things , so if anyone has any suggestions for the forum , then feel free to just let us know .

[olboys]

let me see,i like too tattoo i do'nt even charge alot,i love the work,i use alot of through aways, pre-sterile needles,tubes lexan.and i do everything by the book.i even had some equipment tested at a lab by a buddy for contamination.the point im trying to make is you can safely tattoo somebody without and auto. furthermore if other shops and artists,wouldn't be so greedy about apprentiship fees and there experiants. there would be alot safer people tattoing out there.as far as suppliers its about the money just like alot of tattoo people.just like you getting wiser you want to handicap people from getting into the field so they wouldn't take your money or you would teach for free,and help someone get into the field. your type are always the same.don't take a slice of my bread :roll:

[imported_NeedleJack]

And another thought...
If them being clean is truely your main objective for helping them along...and it should be...why not require that they take a course in cross contamination control BEFORE you hand out information on "how to shade" or "How to do blackwork" on an open forum?
I am not attempting to start trouble. I just want to find answers to questions I haven't been able to find from anyone yet.
I've heard a zillion people tell me they think it's good to help these people...but I have yet to see a single one ask that the person get certified (and prove it) in exchange for that info. Don't you feel that would be FAR more responsible?

Hi There GettingWiser:

I would like to take a moment as the owner of Needle Jack to address this. You brought up some very good points. However, the bottom line is this. Scratchers, Tattooists, Amateurs or Pros -> It doesn't matter what you or I think, if an artist wants to tattoo with gasoline & melted crayons in a dirty tube - there is nothing that you or I are going to say to make a person change their mind about what they want and have the right to do. By including an autoclave in a tattoo kit that would raise the price an extra $150 - 200. Small change to you perhaps, but some people buy from us with enough money in there account for the kit and that's it. Most of our purchasers are already apprenticing at a shop. So therefore, who gives a shit about an autoclave? Buyers always have the option to use disposables over ss tubes.

[Papa Gee]

This is a subject I can sink my teeth into. I've recently picked tattooing back up after a 22 year absence. I apprenticed in a shop in San Diego in the early 80's. Back then there were no such things as disposable tubes. You couldnt purchase pre sterilized equipment. Tubes, needles tips and grips were sterilized and used over and over again.

About a month before I purchased the kit I'm using now I sat and watched a friend of mine tattoo his brother with a home made rotary machine that a friend of his loaned him. It was in an old cigar box with some other odds and ends that seem to always end up in cigar boxes.

The needle was attached to the end of a Bic pen ink tube. Apparently it was melted around the head of the needle to hold it in place. My friend drew the design on his brothers arm and commenced to tattoing it without so much as even wiping the dust off the thing. Needles to say I was horrified. It pretty much went against everything I had ever been taught. He even offered to let me do the tattoo. I declined.

The point I'm making here is that people are going to tattoo each other no matter what. I Have covered more hand pick tats since I started back than I can count on both hands and feet.

Now I'm working out of my house and I dont own an autoclave. But I take steps to insure that I'm doing a clean tattoo. New needles and tubes for every tattoo, a clean work area and frequently changing gloves while working. I confine my work to one area of the house and dont wander out of it while tattooing. After every tat I reclean the work area, rebag my spray bottles and properly dispose of all trash and sharps generated.

One of my regular clients and I attended a local shops open house party over the weekend. I spoke to the owner of the shop and told him I tattoo at home, I asked if I might be able to watch a tattoo done in the shop to see if I'm missing any steps regarding the sterilization process. He kind of rolled his eyes and said he didnt care to have me on as an apprentice. (I didnt want to apprentice)That he didnt want to pass on any of his secrets.

I can see his point of view but at the same time I think if the tables were turned I would be inclined to let him sit in on a session. As a tattoo artist, if I went into his shop and paid to have a tattoo done without letting on that I also do tats. Well, his secrets would be up for grabs. It would be a simple matter of sitting down, keeping my mouth shut and taking mental notes. I was tempted to do so as I had a pocket full of change at the time.

The money I've made from tattoing over the last few months has gone straight back into buying equipment and supplies. I dont charge a lot for my work at this point. But I just ordered two new machines, a new power supply and a freakin lifetime supply of spirit master. I use Millenium colors exclusivly and Kuro Sumi black. I'm currently doing a full back piece on a friend. Everytime I pick up my gun and lay ink to skin I learn something new. And I'll be the first to say that the first few tats I did werent that great. But they're a damned sight better than some nasty old handpick done with a sewing needle and a botle of india ink. And I'm confident that they were clean tats too.

This is the reason I appreciate a forum like so very much. I registered here yesterday and have read evey thread on this forum. There is a wealth of information here and a good attitude toward new people getting into tattoing. Ignorance is not bliss and knowledge is the greatest weapon anyone will ever yield. Keep up the good work.....................Papa Gee

[olboys]

thanks papa for your exper.some dudes like screwing with us home tattooers

[Anonymous]

I'm pretty much on the same boat as Papa G. I have been tattooing for a little over a year by word of mouth in my Apt. I use all fresh needles and tubes. I like using new tubes every time. I had a few ss tubes when i first started, but i never reused them because i never felt confident that they were totally sterile. Even if i did get an auto clave with my kit I would probably have no idea how to use it properly and would end up with dirty tubes and needles. I, like Papa G, have asked tattoo artist at shops for some tips and pointers and very very rarely do i get a any help.

My point is that i'm going to continue tattooing. I love it i want to eventually work in a shop. I know that there are many risks envoled in tattooing but having an auto clave is not going to insure a clean application.

I have been looking online for information on how to tattoo and it's really hard to find. this forum has helped me tons and i'm extremly thankful for that.

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

I AGREE WITH GETTN WISER & PAPA G.I BOUGHT A KIT FROM SUPERIOR A LONG TIME AGO.THINKIN I WAS ON THE RIGHT TRACK IT HAD AN AUTOCLAVE& SHIT.WELL IT TURNS OUT THE AUTO CLAVE WAS ABOTTLE STERILIZER,AND SUPERIOR WANTED ME TO SEND IT BACK.I DID ,BUT BEING NEW I DIDN'T ASK FOR A DISCOUNT ON A AUTOCLAVE,SO NOW I GO TO MY FRIENDS HOUSE WHO HAS AN AUTO CLAVE AND HE'S KIND ENOUGH TO LET ME USE IT.HE DOESN'T FEEL THREATEN THAT I'M GOING TO TAKE HIS BIZNESS AWAY FROM HIM,LIKE ME LET'S HIS WORK DO THE TALKIN,CAUSE IF U SUCK U WON'T BE IN THIS GAME FOR LONG.IT'S COOL THAT THE PEOPLE IN THIS FORUM ARE HELPN BEGINNERS.CAUSE I KNOW I NEEDED IT.AND ITS TO BAD THAT SOME POEPLE FEELL THREATEN BY THIS FORUM.

[Madd Chef]

I personaly appreniced for about 8 months and my main focus when I walked in with my portfolio was that i stressed I wanted to learn the cleaning, sterolization procedures and making needles ect. Nedless to say I got my apprenticeship and am now on my own out of a studio off my house, I'm strickly word of mouth and am getting busyer every day. I use only disposable tubes, tips, needles and gloves because in my expereence I have seen ss tubes come out of an autoclave and if they arn't cleaned properly there shit anyway. BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY :!: And I must say I have never yet had a problem talkin to other professional tattooists and have been invited out of town a few times to learn a few more things here and there and as I do you can guarantee I will Pass my knowledge on as well> Cheers

[needlemark]

i have only been in this forum for a week and want to start tattooing. when i asked the question about what to buy and need. i was told a autoclave but if i cant afford one use disposable tubes and needles etc, what valuable advice which i will use. i stumbled on this site by chance and has been a big help to me the other users on this site do preach about being clean and long mat this site continue :D

[coyote bob]

real interesting stuff here..."gettingwiser" aked why do companys sell ... and isn't this promoting irresponsibilty....."runic" was quick to jump on the band wagon indicating his feelings on states not requiring licenses or testing was wrong.. and also stating "those of us professionals"....but where i really started boiling is where "tat2erl" started calling out for TOUGHER LAWS.....as a group of artists we can help the machine legislate tatoos and tattooist right out of existance....tattooing is the last true free form of expression on the planet and once the laws get tougher and the do-gooders, bleeding hearts and pros get it all cleaned up, legalized and legislated then hopefully i'll be dead...the responsibility for the profession lies with the people..(by the way thats the responsibilty that comes with freedom)...hopefully we'll keep the legal machine from chewing up the artform and lend a hand to those coming up....( maybe let some use your autoclave till they get there own.) fullfill the responsibilities of a more experienced artist with guidence and assitance without havin the feds come swooping down...or maybe like in oklahoma we should jes outlaw it so no one can get hurt.....

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

i agree with coyote if you get some organization that starts out helping use,then they start regulateing stuff then they try to make it manditory,pretty soon there going to requier you to have a stencil liscense and on top of that your going to have to pay the man big $$$just to get that liscense.i'm for the safty aspect of tattooing being requiered thats cool to me but thats it.cause you should have the knowledge of the disease out there and how deep to tattoo needles should go and what not to do as far as cross contamination,but after that its up to the customer to figure out whats safe for them, if they don't show me that they sterilized the tube and they don't open a new needle packet they ain't touchin me. :)

[no9to5guy]

As a supplier myself, I want to add onto the comment of Neeldejack. No matter what you do, people are always going to make tattoos with whatever they can use. We do not sell starter kits, unless we have a client who orders for their apprentice. and then we put a kit together. When I started 14 years ago, I couldn't buyany supplies anywhere. unless it was with my boss. On conventions, you couldn't enter the supplies area without having prove that you had a shop or worked in one.
A health approved autoclave in Europe is about 1500 Euros, as the laws are changing, these are the cheapest ones that are legal to use in most countries. For a lot of starters, that's a lot of money, and then there's the sterilizingbags.... I've known people who had a sterilizer, but never used it... I think it's irresponsible, but that's the way it is. It's up to the people to go wher they want and that's the main thing. If someones wants to get tattooed by a mate at home who doesn't have a steriliser, then it's their risk. People should go to somebody and check the needles, if they're sterilised or not. But it's not only the sterilising part, that should be concerned about, one of our customers bought a set of inks, wich were clamed to be a welknown brand, but it was normal paint, and that's more risky then anything else...

[MedusaQueen]

My question is, who the hell gives a shit about "over saturation of the business???" There is NO SUCH THING as over saturation of the tattoo industry. If you're good, and you know what you're doing, you aren't going to feel threatened by Joe Blow up the road. If you are bad, and have no clue as to what you're doing, your not "saturating" shit.

One thing I must point out is this: Even if you have a shop, an autoclave, and all the medical classes out there, none of it means shit if you can't lay a good peice. I worked 3 different shops in this area; I have had all of my classes for cross contamination and blood bourne pathogens. I know how to work an autoclave successfully. The sad thing is, with all of this fancy knowledge and equipment, the shops around here put out shit work left and right. They look down on me because "I ruin the name of tattoos by working out of home." Guess what? I CHOSE to work from home AFTER working with the crackheads that call themselves shop owners, and now my "unprofessionalism" and "over saturation" of the industry is putting their work to shame, and I have more and more of THEIR clients asking ME to put work on them and cover the mistakes put out by these "professional" shops. If you ask me, I'm REPAIRING the name of tattoos by compensating for what these shops cannot accomplish. In fact, I REFUSE to work for another shop until I can step into my own, or unless I know for a fact they are going to appreciate my abilities, no matter how I came across them.

If you ask me, the industry has become quite snobbish; I remember a time when artists loved sharing their ideas and comments on other works; they encouraged improvement and were more than happy to answer simple questions and positively critique work from other artists. Now adays you walk into a shop and all that the artists can do is talk shit about Joe Blow up the road and how much better they are than them, they make up stories about how they "re-use needles" and do all that they can to ruin the other name just so they can keep business in their chair. In my opinion, if your work speaks for itself, you wouldn't have to talk shit to KEEP business.

Personally, I am greatful that I don't have to submit a shop name to get my supplies. Perhaps these suppliers know that some of the best work out there is coming from us "home tattooists," and that some of the greatest names in the industry started from there too. I take back the comment on "no such thing as over saturation of the industry..." The industry IS oversaturated with pompous pricks that have their heads so far up their own ass they can't see the difference between a good peice from home and a bad one from a shop. It's oversaturated with people that flaunt their medical practices over other people's actual artistic talents. It's oversaturated with new laws that come out each day, making it harder and harder for us truly dedicated artists to be able to put our talents to use. I say fuck 'em. If your good, do it. If not, get that way or get the hell out.

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

time will weed the bad ones out :twisted: ,this just may be me but like i said before i've seen the tattoo industry blow up.i think from '93 till now, it was at a slow incline,i can't wait to see who's still around in a couple of yrs.wheither it's over saturated or a fad dying down.the wanna be's will be gone.people are becoming more aware of what they get and who tatts them.when before the just wanted a tattoo,i had girls coming up to me saying"i want a tattoo"i say of what .theyd say"i don't care". :shock: I still get some but not like before.and believe it or not i'd refer them to a tatt shop a friend worked at,or tell them to wait untill they figured out what they wanted.cause i've seen it happen were they just get something then there not happy and they will drag the artist through the mud.but i even noticed how tattoo mag use to have porn video advirtised in the back of there mag then it stopped when tatts were huge,now there in there again,i don't know if that have any indecation of where its headed but its wierd :?

[framey]

:evil:

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

lmao!!!!!!! :lol: thats was good......... :shock: nipples :shock:

[Papa Gee]

I've actually been invited to set up a booth in a hair salon. But getting back to the original subject....

The only tattoo supplier I've seen online that asks for proof of shop ownership or apprentiship has been Lucky's Tattoo Supplies/Mickey Sharpz. Most tattoo supply houses would be giving up a considerable percentage of their quarterly sales if they didnt sell to the general public. It's just an economic fact of life.

I would venture to guess that there are more home tattooists out there than ones working in shops at the moment. I cant imagine that 100% of the guys and girls working in shops today just suddenly popped into a shop one day and got an apprentiship. I'll bet that the vast majority have done a tattoo at a kitchen table at one time or another in their career.

The prevailing attitude around here (where I live) is to trash everyone elses work and proclaim your own to be the best. Forget even trying to have a conversation with one of the local pros about tattooing. Although I dont see three tattoo artists in this town as saturation. I get the impression that they do.

We have two tattoo shops open in Cartersville. Both are almost always closed. We have a guy named Ghost who has been here for a long time. People always try to get me to trash him. They show me the tattoo Ghost did and say "What do you think?" Even if it's not a great tattoo (Ghost has his good days and bad days) I always find something positive to say. People ask me if I know Debbie out in Paulding County. I always say yes, and she's awesome. She really is. Point is that these very same people that I refuse to trash wont even give me the time of day. I cant go sit down with them and talk shop. The very second I say anything about tattooing at home I might as well slam a door in my own face.

I've made myself a promise. In five years when I'm an established tattoo artist. Whether working in a shop or having my own studio. I wont turn away any young artist who is interested in getting into tattooing. I will, at the very least, sit and talk with them and try to pass on tips in sterilization or equipment or even technique. As far as apprenticing anyone? That may be a completely different story. I know what I'm sacrificing to do this and would expect to see as much or more dedication before I would commit to teaching anyone full time.

So....how can a tattoo supplier sell a kit and not include an autoclave? How can someone come onto this forum and gain a wealth of information and assistance without taking a course in CC or proving that they work in a shop? I say it's a damned good thing that they can.

[Madd Chef]

WELL F<ING Said Pappa Gee!! The guy I learned from as well as some of the greats all had to start some where and poked at parties. At least the people in here are tring to do things right and not getting drunk like idiots and pokeing people with a safty pin and Indian Ink!!! :twisted: P>S> I don't work I a shop any more when I have more time I will open up my own shop, and even then it will be off my house all proper as it is now, The only difference between me and the other local tattooist is that I dont have to pay $800.00 a month in rent!!! :shock:

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

i agree with papa g in fact said the same thing in "thank you needle jack" and about over saturation,its a bullshit response to guys that are in this for the t&a,i love drawing in fact i was thinkin about just doing flash all together,sometimes i'll draw something up and give my customers to one of my friends or they come to me to draw it up.shit i'll just sit in the back of a tattoo shop listen to my cd player and draw shit up for the tattoo artists all day.i'm in this for the art not the glamore :D

[voodoo]

maybe they will let u see some nipples too!!! :wink:

[DOPPLENHAKEN]

:shock: :shock: :? :shock: :D

[Choppers4Life]

Ya'll are killing me with all this nipple talk. I want to see too or is it just invitation only? LOL.

[voodoo]

dopp will show ya his--- hes easy! :lol: