Grey wash clarified, once and for all

[oz tattoo]

hey everyone- haven't been around for a while- good to be back, though I don't recognize many of you. Anyway, I was just reading through some old posts about whether grey wash is considered to be black with white mixed, or just black diluted with your liquid of choice (witch hazel, distilled water, etc.) My take is that there is just diluted black, then there is black & grey mixed, then there is black & grey mixed AND diluted- is that right? Now my main question is how to incorporate these different mixtures into a piece. Do you make a decision to use only the black & grey wash for a piece, or do you mix, using some diluted black & then switching to grey wash as the need for lighter, softer shades arises??? I would think that there would be a noticable difference in the two types of ink mixtures if they are used on the same piece, but I may be wrong.
I haven't got a lot of experience with grey wash- I've just been using diluted black for my shading, but haven't been extremely happy with it- could be better, especially when I get into shading large areas where multiple values are needed. Next time I shade, I'd like to try the grey wash, but to get the multiple values, do I cut it with more white, or cut it with water/witch hazel, just as I do with my black???
I think I'm going to buy the Kuro Sumi greywash- I have the lining ink- but I want to make sure that I know how to use it. It IS black & white ink mixed, right? It's not just black kuro lining ink diluted is it?? I want to make sure I'm not paying for some bullshit product that I could have just mixed myself. :)

[MontanaPiercer]

gray wash isn't gray, it is lightened shades of black.... it is NOT a mixture of black and white.
This is an easy way to set up for gray wash pieces. I lay out 5 ink caps. In the first is straight black. For the wash shades, I take a pre-mixed bottle of 50% Pelican and distilled water, and in the caps put, 4 drops, 3 drops, 2 drops and 1 drop, then top off each cap with distilled water. Now you have a full palate of gray shades from solid black to very light...... now just work what you need for each area without having to worry about mixing in the tube.....

[oz tattoo]

thanks montana- that's exactly what I have been doing. So then I ask you this- why the hell would I buy kuro sumi greywash ink if it is just kuro sumi diluted- that's a whole bottle of one value, which I could create on my own. :wink:
Then what place does black & white mixed together have in shading, and can the combination of the two ink mixes (dilution & blk/wht mix)be combined to shade one piece?

[FORGIVEN]

i do it like Montana does , but i also recently got the "silverback " greywash set ....heals nice , consistent , you get four bottles , i'm happy !!

[Chef-Ink]

Oz,

I use the Sumi lining ink and the greywash.
I bought some empty bottles and made 4 different values of the greywash.
I just like having it made up, one less thing to worry about for me.

[XHAZE]

Hey Oz,
My humble opinion is that all of the above is correct but I think it depends on your skill as a tattoo artist more than the mix that is used.
I have been working with a portrait artist who shades out with a 50% conc. black with distilled water and uses white to shade back in, and sometimes over, the black with rounds. I haven't seen that before.

[oz tattoo]

thanks for the replies- I think I'll try pre-mixing some sumi values to have on hand :wink:

[needlemark]

gray wash isn't gray, it is lightened shades of black.... it is NOT a mixture of black and white.
This is an easy way to set up for gray wash pieces. I lay out 5 ink caps. In the first is straight black. For the wash shades, I take a pre-mixed bottle of 50% Pelican and distilled water, and in the caps put, 4 drops, 3 drops, 2 drops and 1 drop, then top off each cap with distilled water. Now you have a full palate of gray shades from solid black to very light...... now just work what you need for each area without having to worry about mixing in the tube.....
can i use witch hazel instead of the distilled water

[timmy]

Yes,witch hazel is fine,some inks break down better with witch hazel than they do water.keep at it&be safe

[nomad]

im having problems getting smoth blends with black and grey i cant seem to see the lighter tones through the iratation also when ido lighter fades their not so smoth at the end am i not moving fast enogh at the end when im fading out

[nomad]

i am having problems getting smooth fading with the black and grey shading i have my black and grey's dilluted to percentages. from going dark to light the light area's are not coming out smooth like i would like.

[psychosailor]

Still struggling myself with smooth Black and Grey, I did 3 seminars recently, Shane Oneil, Brandon Bond, and Dave Martinez. Trying to see what these guys do. I also purchased Joshua Carltons book, Advanced Tattooing Techniques.

At this point I've drawn a conclusion that there are two schools of thought, one being a faster machine for B&G which supposably puts the ink in fast but with a smoother look, and the other school of thought being a slow build up with a slower machine.

I think Brandon and Joshua are on the fast side for shading setup, with Dave and Shane being more along the lines of slow running machines with slow build up. I could barely hear Dave's machine running sitting right next to him while he tattooed. I've seen plenty of guys run a low souding machine but his absolutely sounded like it wasnt even on. LOL

I'm waiting on Guy's new book, Reinventing the Tattoo, but I'm sure hes a fan of the slow build up, knowing what I know about his pencil technique for building up outlines slowly.

So far the best results on B & G for me have been with my new Pulse Solution Shader.

What is everyones thoughts on the best settings or speeds for B@G shading?

Oh also Shane recommends using 000 bugpin mags. I used one so far and worked pretty good. Cant find a decent supplier though, Cam is the only one who seems to carry them and the quality is questionable most of the time.

[black raven]

.................

[black raven]

i am having problems getting smooth fading with the black and grey shading i have my black and grey's dilluted to percentages. from going dark to light the light area's are not coming out smooth like i would like.
practice, thats why they pay us the big bucks.......

[the colorist]

i use cam needles allot, have been for about 7 years now, whats so questionable about them? you used one.... they are very consistent compared to other premades, triple 0 bugpins are some very small ass needles. did they tell you to be careful useing them because of how easy it is to overwork the skin??? being that these needles penetrate the skin with practicallly no effort, a smaller stroke machine running slower ( needle speed)would be advisable to start with. i,m all for expanding my knowledge to improve what i am doing ,but it sounds like you are searching for a majik bullet. damn, what did you lay down for the above mentioned seminars, books? and your on here asking us??? we should be asking you!!! st. Marc also runs his shader like its not even on .... practically no stroke . but what he does is 'push" the ink into the skin, sort of like doing it by hand with no machine.
im getting the impression that some read and research alot,but try or have very little hands on experience.if im wrong in this case ,my apologies,if im not,then nothing will ever beat trial and error,all knowledge is a great asset if it can actually be applied.anything else then its just so much data and info.ive said it before,how can anyone condemn or criticize anyone based on rumors and second hand heresay? unless you know from fact and experience then state it as your assumption or opinion

[the colorist]

i am having problems getting smooth fading with the black and grey shading i have my black and grey's dilluted to percentages. from going dark to light the light area's are not coming out smooth like i would like.
tell me how your shader is set to run,what needles do you use,a photo of your attempts would help as well.
to everyone,you will find that subtle shading will be accomplished once you have a understanding of touch.the feeling of the intial point of contact the needle has with the skin.the speed of your machine is a factor, but only in your preference to execution of a design,in other words,is your approach slow and steady or faster? estimate where you are in relationship to tattooing expertise,are you a beginner,self taught apprentice,advanced or master? some of you need to get rid of the grapefruit and fake skin and move on to the real thing.some need to study visual illusions and color theory more indepth and start to apply what you learn.while others who are far advanced should concentrate on style and there own personal signature in there works.we all know where we are.try not to bite off more than you can chew.but on the same token dont rationalize yourself into inaction.if ya dont know, ask

[the colorist]

you will never become master of anything without trial and error

[nomad]

thanks for the advise i will post pictures of my work. i use 7mags. im not sure how my maching is tuned. would you have any suggestions to any books that i could reffer to so that i can learn to tune my own machines. somone else tunes my machines now.

[psychosailor]

Nomad, Joshua Carlton covers tuning in his book, not sure about guys still waiting for it, but the forum does a pretty good job in my opinion of explaining it. I think it was Black Raven who posted a good run down.. do a search and if you cant find it let me know and Ill track it down.

In response to some of you commenting about my search for the holy magic bullet nothing is further from the truth. Most seminars only cost about $125-$150 bucks, and Joshua's book is $70 now, was $50, and Guy's is $100. I also have a book by Joey Desormeaux on Set-up, tuning and Maintenance that was around $45. When you think about how much you can make on 1 tattoo I dont think investing in knowledge is a terrible thing, especially when its information written by Artists who have styles you admire. One thing I am looking for is consistent information or techniques. If 6 guys all do 3 things the same and 20 things different, well at least you know those 3 things are probably golden and can try to adapt it to your style, and focus on developing the other areas to work for you. Like I said the one are now Id like to still see some improvement is in B&G. So my quest continues.

About cam, yes I only used 1 000 bugpin needle so far from cam, the one Shayne gave out at the seminar. I got good results with it, I wasnt implying that I had any problem with that needle specifically, but I have used a few hundred needles at this point from Cam, use some other suppliers too, and quite often cams needles are hooked right out of the pack. I check every needle now with a loop before I start just to be sure, since I still have a few boxes of 7mags and 5rounds from cam, but probably wont order any more in the future from cam. I was just asking because Ive looked around for the 000 from other suppliers and cant seem to find them and was hoping someone on here new of another supplier that made them.

About colorist's remarks about assumption and opinion. If that was directed at me I dont think I said anything other than exactly that. There very fact that I said the books say, and at the seminar this person "said" imply exactly that. I never said it was gospel, just what those guys were saying. I have my own conclusions from what I have done, and my own theories for what might work better, always bouncing that against what i hear from others. I see both Black Raven and the Colorist are new to this board this year. YOu guys havent seen any of my work since the pics I used to have up in the gallery got wiped out, as did alot of posts from last year. In any case Im sure some of the other guys on here remember me, like Forgiven. I dont think you should assume just because someone is talking about seminars and books that that person doesnt also have their own 1st hand knowledge from experience. I have never condemned or criticized anyone and never will. What works for you might not work for me, and vice versa. But I did think the whole point of this place was to bounce ideas and concepts and theories off each other in order for us all to become better artists. The day we stop learning is the day we allow ourselves to never go beyond our current abilities. I used to train with Frank Shamrock in Submission Fighting and he told me during one practice session that he learns something every practice from everyone. Even someone who just signed up for a class and had never done any type of fighting or martial arts would teach him something that day. I think we should approach our art the same way. Thoughts?

[the colorist]

Nomad, Joshua Carlton covers tuning in his book, not sure about guys still waiting for it, but the forum does a pretty good job in my opinion of explaining it. I think it was Black Raven who posted a good run down.. do a search and if you cant find it let me know and Ill track it down.

In response to some of you commenting about my search for the holy magic bullet nothing is further from the truth. Most seminars only cost about $125-$150 bucks, and Joshua's book is $70 now, was $50, and Guy's is $100. I also have a book by Joey Desormeaux on Set-up, tuning and Maintenance that was around $45. When you think about how much you can make on 1 tattoo I dont think investing in knowledge is a terrible thing, especially when its information written by Artists who have styles you admire. One thing I am looking for is consistent information or techniques. If 6 guys all do 3 things the same and 20 things different, well at least you know those 3 things are probably golden and can try to adapt it to your style, and focus on developing the other areas to work for you. Like I said the one are now Id like to still see some improvement is in B&G. So my quest continues.

About cam, yes I only used 1 000 bugpin needle so far from cam, the one Shayne gave out at the seminar. I got good results with it, I wasnt implying that I had any problem with that needle specifically, but I have used a few hundred needles at this point from Cam, use some other suppliers too, and quite often cams needles are hooked right out of the pack. I check every needle now with a loop before I start just to be sure, since I still have a few boxes of 7mags and 5rounds from cam, but probably wont order any more in the future from cam. I was just asking because Ive looked around for the 000 from other suppliers and cant seem to find them and was hoping someone on here new of another supplier that made them.

About colorist's remarks about assumption and opinion. If that was directed at me I dont think I said anything other than exactly that. There very fact that I said the books say, and at the seminar this person "said" imply exactly that. I never said it was gospel, just what those guys were saying. I have my own conclusions from what I have done, and my own theories for what might work better, always bouncing that against what i hear from others. I see both Black Raven and the Colorist are new to this board this year. YOu guys havent seen any of my work since the pics I used to have up in the gallery got wiped out, as did alot of posts from last year. In any case Im sure some of the other guys on here remember me, like Forgiven. I dont think you should assume just because someone is talking about seminars and books that that person doesnt also have their own 1st hand knowledge from experience. I have never condemned or criticized anyone and never will. What works for you might not work for me, and vice versa. But I did think the whole point of this place was to bounce ideas and concepts and theories off each other in order for us all to become better artists. The day we stop learning is the day we allow ourselves to never go beyond our current abilities. I used to train with Frank Shamrock in Submission Fighting and he told me during one practice session that he learns something every practice from everyone. Even someone who just signed up for a class and had never done any type of fighting or martial arts would teach him something that day. I think we should approach our art the same way. Thoughts?
i even apologized before hand.and again i apologize.this was not meant to be an attack on you,but more of an assestment of people who assume to know without experience to back up there knowledge.too often someone will go on heresay and rumors as if they were gospel.and tattooing isnt a field where rumors can benefit anyone.i dont dispute your expertise,knowledge base or your hands on experience.but it can be frustrating when those who dont, preach.i would love to compare notes with you and count you as a friend
jerred

[black raven]

Nomad, Joshua Carlton covers tuning in his book, not sure about guys still waiting for it, but the forum does a pretty good job in my opinion of explaining it. I think it was Black Raven who posted a good run down.. do a search and if you cant find it let me know and Ill track it down.

In response to some of you commenting about my search for the holy magic bullet nothing is further from the truth. Most seminars only cost about $125-$150 bucks, and Joshua's book is $70 now, was $50, and Guy's is $100. I also have a book by Joey Desormeaux on Set-up, tuning and Maintenance that was around $45. When you think about how much you can make on 1 tattoo I dont think investing in knowledge is a terrible thing, especially when its information written by Artists who have styles you admire. One thing I am looking for is consistent information or techniques. If 6 guys all do 3 things the same and 20 things different, well at least you know those 3 things are probably golden and can try to adapt it to your style, and focus on developing the other areas to work for you. Like I said the one are now Id like to still see some improvement is in B&G. So my quest continues.

About cam, yes I only used 1 000 bugpin needle so far from cam, the one Shayne gave out at the seminar. I got good results with it, I wasnt implying that I had any problem with that needle specifically, but I have used a few hundred needles at this point from Cam, use some other suppliers too, and quite often cams needles are hooked right out of the pack. I check every needle now with a loop before I start just to be sure, since I still have a few boxes of 7mags and 5rounds from cam, but probably wont order any more in the future from cam. I was just asking because Ive looked around for the 000 from other suppliers and cant seem to find them and was hoping someone on here new of another supplier that made them.

About colorist's remarks about assumption and opinion. If that was directed at me I dont think I said anything other than exactly that. There very fact that I said the books say, and at the seminar this person "said" imply exactly that. I never said it was gospel, just what those guys were saying. I have my own conclusions from what I have done, and my own theories for what might work better, always bouncing that against what i hear from others. I see both Black Raven and the Colorist are new to this board this year. YOu guys havent seen any of my work since the pics I used to have up in the gallery got wiped out, as did alot of posts from last year. In any case Im sure some of the other guys on here remember me, like Forgiven. I dont think you should assume just because someone is talking about seminars and books that that person doesnt also have their own 1st hand knowledge from experience. I have never condemned or criticized anyone and never will. What works for you might not work for me, and vice versa. But I did think the whole point of this place was to bounce ideas and concepts and theories off each other in order for us all to become better artists. The day we stop learning is the day we allow ourselves to never go beyond our current abilities. I used to train with Frank Shamrock in Submission Fighting and he told me during one practice session that he learns something every practice from everyone. Even someone who just signed up for a class and had never done any type of fighting or martial arts would teach him something that day. I think we should approach our art the same way. Thoughts?
very well put,,now i see where you are coming from.... why dont you post some pics, tell us what you think needs improvement and lets see what we can do to help ya out.....
stevie

[psychosailor]

Now were talking guys...thats what its all about.. making friends, networking, and comparing notes... :) I can be friends with anyone who can be friends with me... thanks for the responses back... glad to know you both and look forward to talking with you some more.. you both have posted some really great info on here and Im sure everyone sees you as great assets to the board...

Ill post a few pics now if I can.. some of the latest stuff.. but last time I did the gallery got wiped out..and thats pretty frustrating to spend time posting only to see it go away.. looks like the gallery still isnt working.. bummer... I do have a website I need to get back up at psychosailor.com, for now I have it pointed to a new inkednation.com page I setup the other night..maybe I can post some pics there in the mean time..

[the colorist]

Now were talking guys...thats what its all about.. making friends, networking, and comparing notes... :) I can be friends with anyone who can be friends with me... thanks for the responses back... glad to know you both and look forward to talking with you some more.. you both have posted some really great info on here and Im sure everyone sees you as great assets to the board...

Ill post a few pics now if I can.. some of the latest stuff.. but last time I did the gallery got wiped out..and thats pretty frustrating to spend time posting only to see it go away.. looks like the gallery still isnt working.. bummer... I do have a website I need to get back up at psychosailor.com, for now I have it pointed to a new inkednation.com page I setup the other night..maybe I can post some pics there in the mean time..
http://photobucket.com/ pm me with your inkednation handle

[black raven]

http://photobucket.com/ pm me with your inkednation handle
i use photo bucket as well, 5 min. to set up, its been a breeze to use since....

[psychosailor]

Here is my site guys.. posted a few pics..Ill post some more soon.. the two I'd like you guys to give some ideas on are the skull and the Smile Now... As I said.. I feel like my shading is ok..but not as smooth as Id like it to be... any ideas or tips are greatly appreciated..

http://www.inkednation.com/psychosailor

[psychosailor]

OK..I know this is a little goofy.. but its what the client wanted..so...

Scarface logo with the clients face instead of al pacino.. I still am not happy with the shading... want to smooth it out more... i used 5 cups with diluted Pelikan..at different pecentages.. working dark 1st...then middle range. then lighter or darker depending on area.. any thoughts on how to smooth this out..

If you want to see a bigger pic go to my inkednation.com page

inkednation.com/psychosailor

[psychosailor]

well i just looked at that last post and to get the pic up on needle jack I had to really degrade it and you cant really see the shading..so please look at it on inked nation and give me some input.. thanks guys...

[the colorist]

well i just looked at that last post and to get the pic up on needle jack I had to really degrade it and you cant really see the shading..so please look at it on inked nation and give me some input.. thanks guys...
comment posted on inked

[Martin]

if this were an actual portrait tatto it might need a little more detail, but compared to the al pachino pic, thats a pretty good job. what did you use for needles?

[sac4life]

i would of did it just like the al pachino picture with no shadeing just black and white, i think this would of went better with the overall tattoo, you know one style all the way through,

just my two cents

sac4life

[psychosailor]

Colorist.. thanks for the note on inkednation...

Martin
thanks..i agree.. i was wanting to try out a little portrait style shading without going overboard sinc it would contrast the design too much..did just enough to get some practive and not kill the tattoo.. i used a 7 mag for the shading..and 39 and 23 magnums for the solid color...


sac4life
yeah..this was a hard decision.. i did want to get some portrait style practice in which was part of the reason for doing it that way, but also, i was afraid if i did it that way it would just look like a bad scarface logo..in otherwards the guys face wouldnt of been as reconizable as it is now... anyway he likes it and i got some portrait style practice....thanks for the input..