brass - steel - iron ?????

[FORGIVEN]

lately , ive been really digging my brass machines , and the irons are a close second ....only use 2 of the S.S. anymore ...anybody thinking the same way ????

[swaps]

Hi,
I have ony used stainless and a Auuminium framed machines. What are the advantages of brass and iron ? I know the extra weight can aid penitration for the needle but is weithg the only advantage ?

Best wishes Alan

[papadurivage]

I really dont know the answer to that question.. but i do know this.. different metals have different conduction properties.. both electrically and heat wise.. maybe that has something to do with it.. all I know is that my brass machine runs the smoothest out of my machines (have aluminum, iron and brass).. but there are other differences besides what type of metal my machines are made from.. so its pure speculation..

[hotdiggitydawg]

Aluminium is 1 of the best heat conducters going... is that a bad thin or a good thing when it comes to tattoo machines???

Stainless steel??? Ok it's not magnetic but a yolk would sort this out... Right???

[needles]

brass will absorb more vibration weight has very little to do with penetration as far as im concerned maybe it can aid in stability.
brass also takes the magnetic distortion of an iron frame away from the equation.
personally i like iron . as low carbon as you can get
stainless is only any good if you are going to use a soft iron yoke.
this is due to its high chromium content and poor magnetic properties.
i have never liked the feel of aluminium frames. they certainly cant dissipate vibration as well as iron or brass.

[happy]

Im no expert on metallurgy but I know brass is an alloy with tin in it, its made up of copper mostly. , I mean not all brass has the same alloy for instance the brass they use in the plumbing will have zink in it. but as I say Im no mettalurgist brass is basically like another alloy bronze, bronze hase more percentage of copper which is a good conductor , That is why If you have a few brass machines you will notice that some will look more red than others that may look more yellow ,this Is the copper content, And all this is proportional to the whole equation of how the tatto machine is tuned. every machine is different.

[voodoo]

andy,i'm go'n with brass!Used my 2 new ones this past weekend and have to say it's brass from now on!

[5Liner]

This is an article by Danny Fowler. This is NOT my own.Enjoy.

"First: Considering the frame materials, one must take the following into account; we are surrounding a magnetic field with this frame. We all know or at least we have been taught, that iron is the material of choice; myself, through literally hundreds of hours spent with Paul Rogers “ THE TRUE MACHINE BLACKSMITH “ of our time. I too was confident, and still am, in this man’s tattoo machine knowledge. Paul had a great influence on my thinking for many years. His machines ran better than any you could buy on the market. His dedication to the craft of machine building set him far ahead of the other builders….. of that time.
However, Paul never really answered the questions that I had deep down inside. For example: What is the best core material? What about wire, what kind and how much? What is the real science involved in core construction? Spring materials, how hard and what tensions? I can still picture him showing me his way, yet for me that was just not enough. I wanted to know the science behind the art.

The search was on: An iron frame, is not just a frame, it also acts as the yoke in the magnetic field. The yoke’s weight and density is one of the most important calculations in the design of the horseshoe magnet. The laws of physics dictate, that the yoke weight must be equal to the weight of the two uprights (cores) of the horseshoe magnet. (After all that’s what we’re doing here.)

With iron frames, the yoke/upright ratios are grossly out-of-balance, and this dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the electromagnet balance. This increases power consumption and all the inherent problems this creates. Isolating your magnetics is probably the most important consideration in frame design. Understand, if both core centers, before they’re drilled, weigh say, (hypothetically) 12 grams. The yoke and the armature bar must weigh the same, separately, plus or minus 50 grains. This is only one reason an iron frame, (extra yoke), will bleed off magnetic energy. And consider this. The magnetic field, itself, is blind, and will search for any and all ferrous material, an upright, back post, and even screws.

The studies we’ve done here at Time Machine have shown that, casted iron frames are undeniably problematic, for a few reasons. Castings exclude cool-down times. Uncontrolled cooling of iron confuses the carbon/atom flake separation signature. This occurrence inhibits rapid magnetic flux deployment between the coils. These castings are also filled with open pockets of air (porosity), forcing electrons to jump over and around their intended route, between point A and point B. (And welding on frames?) Forget about it. Invision this: Working, with any iron machine, (more often a shader…) four to five hours in, the machine just doesn’t have the punch it had when you started. I use to think, the skin was too traumatized. I’d check out the needles/tubes. Hell, even change it all out, scratch my head. Take a break. Was this all in my head? Frustrated I’d set up an appointment to finish the job later. (“Piece of junk”) After the weekend, on Monday, the junk ran fine. “What da hell?” After fifteen years of trial and error, I’d had enough.

The science of Metallurgy is the key, to unlocking this problem. What was happening to the core material is this. Each and every time the cores were charged with current, a very small amount of magnetic flux, i.e., residue, was left behind, causing the core to hold a magnetic charge. (On its own.) The core was holding more and more, until the magnetic force left behind, had a hold on the armature bar. This situation particularly robs the rear spring’s use of its potential energy, slowing down its out-bound retreat. The machine becomes lazy. Fact: The higher the carbon values in the core iron, the more magnetic flux retention."

By Danny Fowler

[black raven]

stick with iron , brass or steel. they all have draw backs but most are personal or controversial things any way. a recent test was done by setting up 3 of the exact machines but the side plates were aluminum, brass and iron.
one did not out preform the others to really make a winner. believe it or not the aluminum ran a 1/2 volt lower to achieve the same running speed as the others. i prefer steel. i have a tommy stegal machine thats not welded, its bent from all one piece. one of the smoothest trouble free machines i own. being that you have currant running thru the frame, i often wondered how the welds would effect the running of a machine? one problem with iron is that the frames may become magnetized over time. this can happen when the abar sticks to the front coil when the machine is not hooked up. the coils are not dissipating the magnetic field , it holds it. i few simple whacks with a screw driver( be careful) to the bottom of the frame will eliminate this. brass is very good. only problem is it is very soft. you bang it or drop it , bends real easy. aluminum works but way to light for me. also don't care for that tinny sound on the machines i have used.

[_Rage_]

Thanks 5liner, that is REALLY usefull information. What was that article from? I'd like to find more from Fowler, because that kind of scientific information is EXACTLY what I've been looking for.

[Rickyboy]

Thanks 5liner, that is REALLY usefull information. What was that article from? I'd like to find more from Fowler, because that kind of scientific information is EXACTLY what I've been looking for.


Here is the link to alot of good info from Danny Fowler!!


http://www.atimemachine.com/articles/index.html

[_Rage_]

Damn that guy is brilliant!. Printing all this stuff off, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[Rickyboy]

no problem!:D

[pookie]

Theres no one frame type that works best, as mentioned before they all have draw backs.
This can normally be sorted by what materials are on the machine i.e. contact post,hell even the screws that hold the coils in can make a slight difference but you could go on forever with theories.
Thats my little input anyway!

[ChaChaChaChanges]

Has anybody had any experience with a bronze frame? ive seen a couple of brozne machines id like to give a try but id like to know if anyone has any previous knowledge of how the bronze feels in relation to brass iron etc

[Martin]

anyone ever hear of a machine made of copper nickel. I havent, but i think it's a cool concept.

maybe i will have to make one and give it a try.

[ChaChaChaChanges]

I actually saw a Copper Walker style machine a few weeks ago that looked so fucking awesome. all the hardware was copper too. i think it sold for somewhere near 300 though and it had been a little less i for sure would have bought it

[Martin]

actually copper nickel is a bit different from regular copper. i suppose at a glance it might look like steel, but would be lighter in weight.
i know that some plumbing pipes are made of this but i'm not sure if it's made in a solid stock. i guess any metal could be made in solid stock, just a matter of finding where to get it.

[ChaChaChaChanges]

yea i know of a couple knifemakers who sell slabs of awesome looking damascus steel for like 30 bucks or something. ive been thinking of getting some and machining some into a side plate for one of my machines

[ChaChaChaChanges]

oh and the copper isnt the bronzeish color like pennies. what sets it apart from like iron or steel

[Martin]

i was a welder for about 3 years. I think tungsten would be a little too fragile. but when i get back to the states, what is the possibility of you sending me some small 3x3x1/2 inch pieces of metal. i can pay.

[ChaChaChaChanges]

just thought i should let you guys know that aaron cain is selling a machine on ebay that he made out of METEORITE. and it looks so freaking awesome.