Using mags

[Rockabillytattoo]

I've been reviewing some past posts and I've noticed alot of us warning others about using mags as apposed to flats. A lot of, you can really cut someone up easily, is what I've read most. Obviously, I understand that a mag is basically a double stacked staggered flat, so I would imagine it can do more damage quicker than a flat. As a rookie, what do I need to be careful of using a mag. Should power be lower or quicker, or do I stay away from going over an area more than once? If anyone could elaborate on mags for me, that would rock!

Rock on

[johnnynotoes]

I've been reviewing some past posts and I've noticed alot of us warning others about using mags as apposed to flats. A lot of, you can really cut someone up easily, is what I've read most. Obviously, I understand that a mag is basically a double stacked staggered flat, so I would imagine it can do more damage quicker than a flat. As a rookie, what do I need to be careful of using a mag. Should power be lower or quicker, or do I stay away from going over an area more than once? If anyone could elaborate on mags for me, that would rock!

Rock on

i was in a friends shop this week sitting in with him, and he runs the mags really slow, and kind of cross hatches as he colours, works really well.

[punkfloyd]

I use 7 mags for colouring and shading.I have a machine set up with 10 coils, an Eikon heavy armature bar and mid range springs 20's, I run slow around 5 volts and punch in the colour, tight ovals pushing up against the skin, I try and work areas no more than 3 times as a rule. I also use the mag sideways to catch areas I've missed , tight areas like tips of tribals and fixing an outline I'm not happy with
I up the volts a couple around 6.5 to 7 and use it for shading just like a flat.

I know that some people will not recommend using Mags sideways and I respect all opinions, but it works for me.

Before the Mags I was using 7 rounds, very slow but effective I still have them in my arsenal for small work.

I had only done around 30 tattoos before switching to mags so I was somewhat of a rookie too, like you I was apprehensive but I recommend you take the plunge you will never go back, Read every post you can find on the subject and be confident, if its not working for you switch back to the rounds mid tattoo.

Hopes this helps

[untitled_again]

^^^ he said it

[framey]

weaved are a little easier to cope with than stacked

[Rockabillytattoo]

I use 7 mags for colouring and shading.I have a machine set up with 10 coils, an Eikon heavy armature bar and mid range springs 20's, I run slow around 5 volts and punch in the colour, tight ovals pushing up against the skin, I try and work areas no more than 3 times as a rule. I also use the mag sideways to catch areas I've missed , tight areas like tips of tribals and fixing an outline I'm not happy with
I up the volts a couple around 6.5 to 7 and use it for shading just like a flat.

I know that some people will not recommend using Mags sideways and I respect all opinions, but it works for me.

Before the Mags I was using 7 rounds, very slow but effective I still have them in my arsenal for small work.

I had only done around 30 tattoos before switching to mags so I was somewhat of a rookie too, like you I was apprehensive but I recommend you take the plunge you will never go back, Read every post you can find on the subject and be confident, if its not working for you switch back to the rounds mid tattoo.

Hopes this helps

Awesome stuff Punk, thanks for the advice. You mention you always use 20's for springs. I thought a 16 was best for the soft hit. Is this how you compensate for more force required to get the mag to work?

Rock on!!

[punkfloyd]

A heavy A bar and 16s will give you a real soft machine ideal for packing in colour, there was no technical science behind me putting 20s on my machine other than I wanted it set so I could shade as well so I went with mid springs, it works for me.
I'm guessing others use other set ups to good effect too;)

[hotdiggitydawg]

A heavy A bar and 16s will give you a real soft machine ideal for packing in colour, there was no technical science behind me putting 20s on my machine other than I wanted it set so I could shade as well so I went with mid springs, it works for me.
I'm guessing others use other set ups to good effect too;)

heavy a-bar, lower gauge springs and don't forget the large cap. that's the my colour machine is set-up and she hit's nice and slow but I wouldn't say soft, she can drive in a 13 weaved mag with ease. I used this machine for my first attempts at shading with mag's/flats because it's slow and there's less chance of chopping things up, works a treat and before long you'll be wantin to speed things up... a lot lol

[lotsix]

i totally agree about the mags...i was using flats/round shaders in the beginning. then after reading here, i tried the stacked mags...huge difference! better coverage, smooth too. I also use rounds for tight areas, but a sideways mag can get almost anywhere.

[purple9111]

all ive ever used was mags thats what i was taught with ive used rounds a few times but i dont like them unless its small tattoos.

[pookie]

Well i kept trying mags all the time but always ended up goin back to rounds.

Couldnt seem to get on with them but after alot of tinkering about (9mths of it lol) i got a great set up on my machine that i use for powerlining and solid colour,i can put ink in with rounds, flats and mags.

However after using a mag and a flat on the last 2 tats i find these to be the best for me now as i get the 'orange peel' affect on the skin with these.

[the colorist]

I use 7 mags for colouring and shading.I have a machine set up with 10 coils, an Eikon heavy armature bar and mid range springs 20's, I run slow around 5 volts and punch in the colour, tight ovals pushing up against the skin, I try and work areas no more than 3 times as a rule. I also use the mag sideways to catch areas I've missed , tight areas like tips of tribals and fixing an outline I'm not happy with
I up the volts a couple around 6.5 to 7 and use it for shading just like a flat.

I know that some people will not recommend using Mags sideways and I respect all opinions, but it works for me.

Before the Mags I was using 7 rounds, very slow but effective I still have them in my arsenal for small work.

I had only done around 30 tattoos before switching to mags so I was somewhat of a rookie too, like you I was apprehensive but I recommend you take the plunge you will never go back, Read every post you can find on the subject and be confident, if its not working for you switch back to the rounds mid tattoo.

Hopes this helps
try using a 9 mag in place of a 7 mag.you'll be surprised at what it can do.the key to using mags is touch."let the needles do the work" don't force results

[PCfuzz]

Great info on mags. Anyone want to put all the best info together and have a sticky for it?
I have 13 mags but never tried a mag yet. I'm waiting until I learn more about them 1st. Until then I'll just stick with rds.

[punkfloyd]

try using a 9 mag in place of a 7 mag.you'll be surprised at what it can do.the key to using mags is touch."let the needles do the work" don't force results

Funny you should say that, as I have started using 9 mags since last month :)

[L_Pease]

Funny you should say that, as I have started using 9 mags since last month :)
It's surprising what two more needles will do.

As far as the flat's vs. mags debate, I think the "you can cut somebody up " comments are directed at flats and not mags. Flats can be VERY dangerous in the wrong hands. Mags however, are about the easiest shader set-up there is. Stacked mags seem a bit overkill and potentially damaging to the skin, but mags where every other needle is spread upward (weaved or spread mags) pack the color in much faster and shade much smoother with much less trauma to the skin. There's a reason everybody uses mags now and flats are kinda' obsolete.

[tat_monkey]

I agree flats can be dangerous (if run side to side). I use flats for grey shading and mags for solid fill and color. I would suggest you give them a try. I think you will find that the mag does a better job of putting in color than the flats. Just make sure you have a long stroke, lower duty cycle, watch your hand speed, and don't overwork the skin (better to do a touch up than to scar).

[pookie]

yep gota agree with all the above, took me a while to master mags....some people seem to pick them up straight away but once youve mastered them theres no going back.
its always been smoother for shading and they pack colour in quicker with less trauma to the skin.

[L_Pease]

I agree flats can be dangerous (if run side to side). I use flats for grey shading and mags for solid fill and color. I would suggest you give them a try. I think you will find that the mag does a better job of putting in color than the flats. Just make sure you have a long stroke, lower duty cycle, watch your hand speed, and don't overwork the skin (better to do a touch up than to scar).do you ever get that choppy look where you fan out your shading? Have you ever tried shading with mags? I only ask because I don't know anybody who still used flats after using mags. Mags never leave that choppy look either and it is pretty tough not to with flats.

[tat_monkey]

It really depends on what I'm working on. I use flats to lay grey shades under color (sometimes) I have a ton of them and I gotta use them for something. I find grey work and blending color a good use for them. Once they are gone I won't be buying anymore. I use mags for the most part but when I was getting started I was told to use them to fill color I found out quickly that this was incorrect (in my opinion) I have even done a few black and grey tattoos with one cap of black and no wash (with mags not flats). It's all about hand speed and the way you tattoo.

[L_Pease]

Yeah, I use to use them too before mags. I used them for color and shading and sometimes with very controlled motions, to line with. Not entire outlines, but where needed you can sometimes line with one. I liked them for color fill actually.

[manicmike]

so, can i run a mag sideways, like trying to get into a flame tip or any narrow spot?

[punkfloyd]

so, can i run a mag sideways, like trying to get into a flame tip or any narrow spot?

yes their ideal for that sort of thing :)

[manicmike]

thanx......

[Tat2Pete]

I have been tattooing since 1973. I started with flats for shading and coloring. My dad started me using weaved mags in '79, Zeke Owens taught me how to make them. I ran my machines at what I thought was pretty fast 'till I saw Zeke work. His philosophy at the time was "the less time you are on the skin the less trauma". He ran his machines at a harder stroke than I was accustomed to but the results were fantastic!
I didn't use round "shaders" 'till well into the 80's I used liner set-ups for really small areas up till then.
I use round shaders but I open them up a bit and make them almost oval.
I do this with pre-mades that aren't soldered more than 1/3 of needle length.
What I do is heat the needles where they are soldered with a butane lighter for a few seconds (a quick eight count works for me) then quickly immerse them in distilled water. This causes the grouping to open up a bit, at which time I apply pressure to the ends to cause them to cool into an oval. Be quick and be carefull, if you melt the solder too much you will have it running towards the tips defeating your purpose. I work fast and clean, paying close attention to how the skin is reacting to the trauma of being tattooed.
Start at a comfortable pace, one in which isn't too fast or so slow you are dragging and hanging up in the skin. A common mistake for those starting out is not laying it in the first time, and wondering why thier work isn't staying.
I know this is obvious, but you must overcome the fact that you hurting someone.
That is why I don't recommend apprentice/beginners tattoo themselves without supervision because of the tendency to overcompensate and go to deep and scar themselves. I have seen it all too often.
Pay attention and let the skin show you what you need to do.
"Cool On It Baby" Tat2Pete

[pookie]

one other thing ive noticed with changing over from rounds to mags is it seems with machine set up rounds tend to be more forgiving as in they go in solid more easier.....move onto mags and you struggle more to get it in solid 1st time or not smooth enough.
Once iod played about more with my machine and got the mags to go in like butter,i tried a round again and its like using a paint brush....they go in just as good as before but much faster.
Well thats my inexperienced input anyway lol

[black raven]

I have been tattooing since 1973. I started with flats for shading and coloring. My dad started me using weaved mags in '79, Zeke Owens taught me how to make them. I ran my machines at what I thought was pretty fast 'till I saw Zeke work. His philosophy at the time was "the less time you are on the skin the less trauma". He ran his machines at a harder stroke than I was accustomed to but the results were fantastic!
I didn't use round "shaders" 'till well into the 80's I used liner set-ups for really small areas up till then.
I use round shaders but I open them up a bit and make them almost oval.
I do this with pre-mades that aren't soldered more than 1/3 of needle length.
What I do is heat the needles where they are soldered with a butane lighter for a few seconds (a quick eight count works for me) then quickly immerse them in distilled water. This causes the grouping to open up a bit, at which time I apply pressure to the ends to cause them to cool into an oval. Be quick and be carefull, if you melt the solder too much you will have it running towards the tips defeating your purpose. I work fast and clean, paying close attention to how the skin is reacting to the trauma of being tattooed.
Start at a comfortable pace, one in which isn't too fast or so slow you are dragging and hanging up in the skin. A common mistake for those starting out is not laying it in the first time, and wondering why thier work isn't staying.
I know this is obvious, but you must overcome the fact that you hurting someone.
That is why I don't recommend apprentice/beginners tattoo themselves without supervision because of the tendency to overcompensate and go to deep and scar themselves. I have seen it all too often.
Pay attention and let the skin show you what you need to do.
"Cool On It Baby" Tat2Pete
wow what a great post, thanks pete, we all can learn from the masters... awsome needle tips as well........

[inipi67]

I understand the drawing effect from the heat, but not quite clear where you say add pressure to obtain the oval. What do you add pressure with,? are you createing somewhat of a balloon effect just above the points?
Thank you for the pointers also.

Peace Brothers Rick:cool:

[Tat2Pete]

To obtain the "oval effect, I put pressure near the tips with my index finger.
Just enough to give a very slight oval. My thinking is the oval will allow you to get into tight corners. Sorry about the confusion.
About flats. Are you guys/galls spreading the grouping with a single edged razor blade? Take a single edged razor blade and spread the gouping, starting from the center and work out. You will achieve a small gap (the thickness of the leading edge of the razor blade) between the needles. This will allow for a better flow of the ink and the needles will fill the tube from side to side. If you aren't doing this you will be amazed at how well they now work. The difference between a tight flat group and an open one is like night and day.
ALWAYS have the very point of your needles protruding from the tube tip, when the machine is a rest. Running the needle points inside the tube will ruin the points, this applies to all needle groups, liners shaders etc.
I am here to help. My father explained it this way, "Nothing you can say or do is going to stop someone who is determined to tattoo. It is better for the industry overall if they learn to do it the right way, if you can help/teach someone, what is the harm in doing so". The harm is letting them screw up and have no idea as to why. I am a self taught musician, but I have never been affraid of asking questions or answering one when asked. We are all one, and I for one am happy to help. I sure as HELL can't take this knowledge to the grave with me.
"Cool On It"
Pete

[jjbbuzz]

To obtain the "oval effect, I put pressure near the tips with my index finger.
Just enough to give a very slight oval. My thinking is the oval will allow you to get into tight corners. Sorry about the confusion.
About flats. Are you guys/galls spreading the grouping with a single edged razor blade? Take a single edged razor blade and spread the gouping, starting from the center and work out. You will achieve a small gap (the thickness of the leading edge of the razor blade) between the needles. This will allow for a better flow of the ink and the needles will fill the tube from side to side. If you aren't doing this you will be amazed at how well they now work. The difference between a tight flat group and an open one is like night and day.
ALWAYS have the very point of your needles protruding from the tube tip, when the machine is a rest. Running the needle points inside the tube will ruin the points, this applies to all needle groups, liners shaders etc.
I am here to help. My father explained it this way, "Nothing you can say or do is going to stop someone who is determined to tattoo. It is better for the industry overall if they learn to do it the right way, if you can help/teach someone, what is the harm in doing so". The harm is letting them screw up and have no idea as to why. I am a self taught musician, but I have never been affraid of asking questions or answering one when asked. We are all one, and I for one am happy to help. I sure as HELL can't take this knowledge to the grave with me.
"Cool On It"
Pete
heard of spreading the needles before , just not tried it yet..! and very well said to help people learn the right way..

[pookie]

me neither but i think i will now

[L_Pease]

ALWAYS have the very point of your needles protruding from the tube tip, when the machine is a rest. Running the needle points inside the tube will ruin the points, this applies to all needle groups, liners shaders etc.
"Cool On It"
PeteI don't see what you're saying. How are you ruining your tips? The needles are tapered and the points never come into contact with the tube. If your tubes are crowning then the tips should be replaced. Obviously you're working off the tip of the needles and not riding the tube. For those that ride the tube (I think most here do) they are gonna' hang up in the skin and really tear it up. I work more like a paint brush off the needles and always make a point of the needles returning into the tube. Guy A. told me one time that as long as the needles go back into the tube, then you're not running them too deep. This should only be applied by those who are running soft hitting machines and never by anyone riding the tube!!! I'm not trying to start an argument with you, that comment just struck me funny.

[voodoo]

...When i use mags to color the needles never protude out of the tip.I have the needle(s) come out just enough to penetrate the proper depth into the skin...Riding the tube another words...But i only do this for color and shading..

[undercover art]

I work off of the needles tips, and they protrude just slightly (very slightly) from the tip, but I bet they retract into the tip just a lil on the return stroke...may not work for all, especially if you feel like you could go too deep...working off the tips is all a feel thing....