Raw frame help

[j7899]

I have a raw jonesy frame coming and was wondering if anyone here has the schematics for the proper placement of the holes to be drilled? I have seen some guides for machine specs on eBay but always to late to bid on them.

[psychosailor]

Yeah.. Im intrested in some frame geomety specs myself... looking to cast a few brass machines... trying to work out some of my own geometry.. but some guidance would probably save some headaches... would be willing to share some other knowlege in return.. or pay for it... knowledge is power!!1

[FORGIVEN]

Answer Your Phone ...

[psychosailor]

forgiven.. bro.. left it in the woman car... and shes away for a few hours... give pm your number and ill call ya..

[framey]

depends on what its for

[psychosailor]

can you shed some light on us with some geometry schematics? :)

[framey]

ok think about it

what componants do you need to mount into the bottom?

what makes a liner a liner and a shader a shader?

add all the bits together

if i give you the dimensions for it all what have you learnt ;)

whos frames did you buy? some need a little help

but heres some tips :)

measure twice cut once
slots are pretty handy
use plenty of lube or your gonna break loads of taps
dont try to rush thru the drilling
plenty of support stops things twisting and breaking

if you need any help pm me

[FORGIVEN]

Damn framey ..........
aint this much outta you in awhile .....
nice ....

[psychosailor]

Framey,

Didnt but anyones frames, trying to work out some geometry to pour some of my own, sandcasting them, I know the obvious stuff like forward slots for shaders back more for liners, and general holes to drill and tap for all the required components.. but Im sure there is so much more Im not thinking of in regards to how the components line up.. i know the linear geometry is very important.. you tips on drilling and support made alot of sense.. I got a few questions.. Ill shoot you a PM.. thanks for offering to help...

and Forgiven... your supposed to be on vacation!!! Stop posting for once and enjoy the beautiful Keys Lifestyle... :)

[SlickSquid]

Damn framey ..........
aint this much outta you in awhile .....
nice ....

Yeah this is definitely one of his longer posts!:D

[j7899]

I was mainly looking for the proper placement for the coils, proper distance between each. I got a copper-red-bronze cast of a jonesy frame. Need to clean the frame up. As for the front binding post, that part is easy. The below picture isn't the exact one I am getting, mine is supposed to be a better casting according to the seller.

http://i7.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/a6/59/0072_1.JPG

[framey]

check for draught angles
is he milling it for you or are you doing it?

[jjbbuzz]

yea check the draught angles, it can be a pain gettin em right.. heheh...lol:D

[j7899]

Got the frame today looks pretty good, need to mill it down. What are draught angles?

[_Rage_]

There arent really any set in stone numbers Im afraid. Its all relational. If you want a harder pull on your abar, you might move your coil holes up, if you are wrapping larger diameter coils (say 10 or even 12 as apposed to 8) you are going to set your coil holes further apart. You're top binding post hole is going to depend on if you want it running color, liner, shader (soft b&g) etc. The only REAL firm figure is the spring post, but even that depends on alloy. If its iron or steel, then its set in stone.......unless you use shorty coils or stilted of course. If its an alloy, its going to depend on your yolk thickness and coil length.

Im not trying to discourage you by any means at all, but the values change from one machine to the next, and I'd be shocked if any of the machines I make have the exact same geometry since Im always making one offs.

Best to start with one or 2 existing machines and start playing. Measure your components, and figure out where they are changing the dimensions and why (look to my first paragraph and it'll sort of explain why).

I wish there was an easy answer I could give you, but there isnt. If it were me, I'd start with the coils (start with the rear coil so you can make sure there is clearance off the rear of the frame) and work my way up the machine

[psychosailor]

Rage.. some good info in there.. thanks for that!

[j7899]

I kind of figured that was the case Rage, thanks for the good reply. I am throwing 8-wrap stilted coils on it. Once I mill the frame down, I will do as you said and start with the rear coil. I like to keep about a post-it note away from the a-bar and rear coil when the a-bar is pressed down, I find this helps keep the machine running at lower voltages. I will take measurements from a couple of my other machines as you said. I will leave the front binding post as is, I like to try and get the contact screw as straight down as possible on all of my setups. Machines with the contact screw almost pointing forward I have found to be harder to tweak to my liking, I would rather make my own spring than have it at an odd angle.

[_Rage_]

sounds like you have a pretty good foundatioin knowledge for what you like personally. once you know how far back from the rear spring mounting point you like your rear coil (which looking at you other machines, you probably have an idea for the distance you like) you will be able to work from there. I find most coils are at least 3/4" diameter, and I like to leave just a hair (maybe a 32nd) in between em, so I put my front coil core mounting hole just about 25/32" forward of my rear coil. At that point you can mock up your coils, and springs with your abar, which gives you the ability to lay your top binding post against the sidearm and move it around until you get the position you like, mark it, and drill it out. Rear binding post is fairly non-critical, and easily measured off your other machines. That just leaves your chuck, but with the rest of it mocked up, a cut down needlebar chucked in will help you find the best placement, though again its not quite as critical since you have some lateral movement with your springs.

Did you ever say what material you are using? Sounds dumb, but dont forget that if its an alloy to keep the thickness of the yolk in mind when planning your top binder and spring mount locations.

[j7899]

It is a copper-red-bronze sand cast I believe.

[psychosailor]

Holy crap... i almost sheot myself.. my wife has been looking for a job the last few weeks.. i new she had some interviews... so she comes home and tells me she got hired... and asked me what a machine shop and foundry was...

guess i dont have to buy that backyard foundry equipment after all to cast some frames... now that I have an "inside contact", she had no idea..... funny how the universe makes things work out when you really focus your mind on setting out to do something... Ive been seriously studying machines for about a year with the intention of building some someday... and after I realized so many are cast frames.. I remembered I had done some sandcasting back in High School... this was only about two weeks ago when I started researching buying some equipment.. and then she goes out and manages this... without knowing what I was up to... funny stuff!! Ill keep you all updated as things progress... but sounds like i can possibly get some machined frames and cast frames all from the same place... couldnt ask for a better solution... :)

[j7899]

Sounds like you lucked out, I was thinking about casting my own also but just don't have the time I would like to put into it. I cannot find time right now to work the jonesy raw frame, but I am thinking of getting into making my own coils.

[psychosailor]

thats cool bro.. have you looked into some coil winders yet? there is a nice one i keep seeing on ebay I keep eyeballing... :) made by SHOGUN Metalworks

Joey D of Infinite Irons sells some cool ones too!!

[j7899]

Yeah at $199 I would rather wind them by hand, there was another electric one for $50.

[psychosailor]

yeah hand wound sounds cool.. but i wonder about it.. no official thought yet because i havent done it.. but seems like it would be hard to keep it really tight and more margin for error... will know soon enough i guess.. :)

[_Rage_]

I made my own coil winder, its nothing elegant like you'd get for 199 bucks (I've seen em, they are nice), but its all metal construction, and its free haha. You can upgrade it to an electric motor with a drill lol. I'll post some pics when I can.

Damn man, its a shame you dont have time to work on your jonsey. Wouldnt take you too long to complete it at all. plus brass is nice to carve, so you could go to town.

[j7899]

I will in a week or so, between Summer classes and friends weddings my free time is gone. I have to head to my brothers to use his air tools, the dremel takes too long to get any of the slag off, plus he has the drill press I need.

I am bidding on a hand winder, all metal nothing fancy. I figure with the first 10 sets of coils I make, as long as they are good I should be able to make my money back for the cost of the wire, and the cores. I probably will end up making my own, dont have a lathe though so I dont think I could make T-top cores.

[kentfinell]

all you need to wind coils is a fishingreel. If you pop off the front parts, a 8/32threaded screw will appear. Put on your coilcore and wind.....................

[SlickSquid]

^^^
Yeah I think I seen Framey used a drill if im not mistaken!! haha im all about the things costing me "Free $0.99" !

[framey]

hahaha i dont use a drill

[_Rage_]

I took a pic of what I cobbled together a while back, with a short description of what the parts are in case anyone wanted to improve upon the idea. Might help somebody down the road

http://www.inkednation.com/images/user_albums/24/29/rage/20072022010.jpg

[j7899]

I ended up buying one of the motorized coil winders (not the $200 one), I got out bid on the hand crank and they end up going for about the same price. I have enough projects so I didn't want to build the hand winder on top of them, yeah making coils is a project but at least one where I can make my invested money back. I lucked out and scored some green coil wire for pretty cheap, some orange with silver tracer wire, and white. Should make some nice coils once I get the hang of winding them, and finishing them.

[_Rage_]

no offence man, but are you sure you bought the right stuff? That doesnt sound like any coil wire I've ever heard.... what gauge and insulation is it?

[j7899]

The white is 24AWG, single cover thin insulated soderon copper wire. The other two are 25AWG single cover thin insulated soderon copper wire all from kustomwire07 on eBay. I would hope they will work since that is what they are sold as, and a lot of the coil builders on eBay buy from this guy. Synthetic silk.

[_Rage_]

OH! synthetic silk? ok, cool....I thought you were buying regular wire with the plastic insulation, like is used in electrical panels (when you said the white stripe or whatever...). Good deal man.

One thing about that wire though. Silk wrapped wire is typically alot thicker than regular, which means you get less wraps cause of the bulk and that leads to heat issues. One thing alot of people do, is use regular copper insulated wire (which yours might be underneith the synthetic silk) and the last wrap, they'll put the silk sleeve over it, so it LOOKS like it was all wrapped in the silk insulated wire. That way you get more wraps, less heat, and the oldschool look.

[j7899]

Good tip thanks! So basically you strip the silk off, do all your wraps except the last, then that one is the wrapped wrap. I know the silk isn't as thick as the cotton ones, but wasn't sure how much it added to it. The wire is soderon thin insulated copper wire, I assume soderon is some sort of coating over the wire. I have a couple sets of quality coil where the guy who made them wrapped them fully with the syn silk covered wire, they run great but a little higher than I would like, so with your mentioned method they should run at lower voltage and look just a good?

[_Rage_]

typically more wraps equals more resistance, equals more voltage without heating up....so it running at a higher voltage MIGHT be in the tuning.

Before you strip it, make sure its insulated, it sounds like it is, but just make sure by scraping some off to make sure you can see a difference between the bare copper and the clear insulation. Hope that helps. Lemme see some coils when you get em done, I'd like to see how ya do, Im sure they'll be good.

[framey]

buy some regular wire first or your gonna waste alot of that silk stuff

[j7899]

I was thinking that too Framey, I have seen some pretty sloppy coils on eBay, probably best to practice with something less expensive.

As for the wrapped coils I have, the one machine took some tweaking to get it to run at 7 volts where before it was around 8-9.

[black raven]

no offense to that dude that sells all the cotton/silk covered wire , but the wire that he uses under it isn't all that good. solderon is a single filament coating which nicks very easy and will develop heat problems. i have used 3 pairs of these coils made by myself and others and and anything up around 7-8 volts , they get warm. there are different grades of copper wire out there with all kinds of coatings on them for specific applications , the two best wire makes that i have found is belden and Essex.. a little on the pricey side but both of these manufactures make a 200 degree rated heavy coated magnet wire that is easy to wind( it has some sort of micro coating on top of the insulation that is kind of slick which makes for smooth clean winds). now obviously you don't want to get the good stuff to practice with so get yourself some 24 GA. crafting wire (ebay sells the stuff by the lb pretty cheap) and use that to practice with and then get yourself the good stuff and go to town!

[j7899]

I was looking at the Essex wire, I will also take a look at the Belden, I could only find it in a huge role, way more than I need right now. Thanks for the tip on the crafting wire, I will grab some, also going to try and get bare copper (insulated, not cloth cover). I thought the wire being sold was superior essex soderon wire, the 25 AWG being soderon FS/155 and the 24 AWG being FS/180? I will take rage's tip with stripping the cloth wire except for the last wrap or so, that should also help keep the volts lower and the heat down. Thanks again for the info and tip black raven.

Edit: I still haven't been able to find any Essex magnet wire, 24 AWG, in anything less than an 11lb spool. Belden seems to be easier to find. No luck on the 24 gauge craft wire on eBay, all priced higher than magnet wire.

[black raven]

belden is top notch but very expensive... about 45-60 lbs a pound... the mr 200 class essex wire(24ga.) the higher the temp # such as 180, 200,220 the heavier the insolation , the more heat it can take. its about 100 bucks for ten pounds. essex wire only comes in ten pound spools.. if you find it in les quanityies its been respooled... not good.. beldon comes in 1 lb spools. hope this helps...

[j7899]

$100 isn't bad considering how much you get with a 10# spool, I also see that they both come in heavy insulation build. Have you used Bae wire, they are on eBay?

[j7899]

Bae wire said the spools of wire are from a 80# spool of Elektrisola Wire. The wire seems to be good quality, but I am wondering what type of issue might arise from respooling? Obviously every wire is respooled from a larger spool, I assume the more times it is respooled the greater the chance of the insulation being worn off or weakening of the wire.

[framey]

radio shack

[black raven]

Bae wire said the spools of wire are from a 80# spool of Elektrisola Wire. The wire seems to be good quality, but I am wondering what type of issue might arise from respooling? Obviously every wire is respooled from a larger spool, I assume the more times it is respooled the greater the chance of the insulation being worn off or weakening of the wire.
you got it.... i bought a spool of wire that was obviously rewound in someones garage off ebay... had kinks and shit... never used bae before...

[j7899]

I had a set of messed up coils I replaced on my liner, I unwound them, re-wound them a couple times. When I felt comfortable I then stripped the wire off and wound with new wire. Wasn't too bad, shortys were a little harder to wind than 1.25" cores. When I got into my 8th wrap on the normal there was a bunch of kinks in the wire, so I cut out the kinks and made it a 7 1/3 wrap coil with a spiral down so no bad wire was used, I will wrap them in some hockey or electric tape. Winding seems to get tricky with the tops and bottoms, I will wire up the coils later on and test them out. The electric winder is great! I will get some pics up later on.

[L_Pease]

Just throwing something out there for those who really know coils.

With guitar pick-ups (magnetic coils) it is a good practice to soak them in hot wax until the wax penetrates the coils fully. This helps isolate each wrap and minimize feedback, allowing you to run a higher volume with a cleaner signal. Has anybody ever applied that science to tattoo machine coils? And as far as heat build-up goes, I always thought of that as energy loss due to inefficient equipment. The electricity has to go somewhere and when it is not working efficiently it is released as heat energy. I have read that it could be as simple as some broken strands of wire in the clip cord, to bad coils. Any physics majors here?

[Inkspressit]

Just throwing something out there for those who really know coils.

With guitar pick-ups (magnetic coils) it is a good practice to soak them in hot wax until the wax penetrates the coils fully. This helps isolate each wrap and minimize feedback, allowing you to run a higher volume with a cleaner signal. Has anybody ever applied that science to tattoo machine coils? And as far as heat build-up goes, I always thought of that as energy loss due to inefficient equipment. The electricity has to go somewhere and when it is not working efficiently it is released as heat energy. I have read that it could be as simple as some broken strands of wire in the clip cord, to bad coils. Any physics majors here?

interesting although I dont know how well it would work on coils as if they warm the wax may loosen and run out?. I've found if i want to barrier coils to stop any minute movement a good soak in electrical varnish works wonders, it penetrates between winds and sets rock hard...always fun watchin lil airbubbles come out from your coils when soakin.. kinda like watchin paint dry

[framey]

make sure you bell them out before dipping other wise what a waste of time
hehehe

[Inkspressit]

make sure you bell them out before dipping other wise what a waste of time
hehehe


WTF you talkin bout willis????? You mean put threads in the holes??? Bell em out???
or you mean hook em up to the door bell???? ;)

[hotdiggitydawg]

A few coats of spray (aerosol) varnish or lacqour works good...